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October 23, 2005

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jan

What a great post! You very objectively laid out the key issues to consider about online dating. I tried it, but have discontinued primarily based on financial and time investment compared to any meaningful results. Now I spend my time blogging...so I'm not sure I've improved my "meaningful results" ratio! :-)

barb

AMEN!

Kari

Thank you Carolyn!!! I think that eHarmony provides a way to MEET people--not KNOW them. It is so easy to get sucked into the trap and convinced by Christians to do whatever I can to "put myself out there". I am surprised so many times by Christians' perspective on dating. Your point about finances is a good one. I think for me--being part of eHarmony has been kind of a distraction when it comes to my relationship with the Lord. I DO believe in the sovereignty of God UNTIL it comes to this area--singleness. Sometimes it seems impossible for God to act, but I am being reminded that I must trust Him to orchestrate HIS will if marriage is in my future. I know that I do not want to be with the wrong mate. I will gladly wait for the right one (sent by God). I am so grateful for God's patience with me.

Claudia

Dear Carolyn
thanks a lot for your wonderful, humble and God centered answer. I love your blog - thank you also for investing your time to share a part of your life with us. God bless you richly

Scott Jonas

Hello to all,

I’ve been snooping around and couldn’t resist responding to this. I’m sure I’ll get a few ladies mad at me. I tried “Christian” online dating for a year, and came to the conclusion that I wouldn’t want to marry 99% of the women there. Why? Because egalitarianism and feminism have influenced their lives somuch. For example, one lady who initially expressed an interest wrote back and said “after reading your profile again, I think you are more conservative than I am. Neither my pastor or I believe that Paul’s instructions on submission have anything to do with wives.” Although I didn’t even mention “submission” in my profile, I couldn’t believe anyone would disregard the clear teaching of Scripture to that extent. All of a sudden it dawned on me just how much Christians have rebelled against God’s word regarding the roles of husbands and wives, and I spent the weekend mourning the sad state of Christian womanhood in our churches. I also now believe that the most likely reason for so many Christian divorces is the rebellion of women towards God’s teaching for them in Titus 2, 1 Peter 3 and related Scripture. I also believe a large reason for this is weak church leadership and fathers allowing their children to be raised in the public schools. In other words, men are largely responsible too.

I’d suggest readers take seriously Ms. McCulley’s 10 points on internet dating, and recognize the character of the men on Christian single websites may not be that great either. I think the reasons those sites exist, along with singles ministries, again are because of weak church leadership and misguided fathers who don’t take seriously their responsibility in the courtship/matchmaking process. Instead of providing oversight and helping singles get married, they are letting singles “figure it out for themselves” with the result that Christian singles are engaging in worldly dating habits (which are also encouraged by on-line "dating"). These, along with the impact of feminism, will likely lead to a continued high divorce rate, even amongst the E-Harmony couples.

My “humble” opinion is that the best place to find single men and women who truly live out God’s word in their lives is amongst the families in the "conservative branch" of the homeschool movement. That is why I’ve been more involved with homeschooling organizations lately although I’m single, and I’d only marry a woman who is prepared to homeschool children. For example, Greg Harris, Josh Harris’ father, has been a long time leader in the homeschool movement and homeschooled his children (with much help from his lovely wife of course). Wouldn’t you ladies like to find a man like Josh or his brothers? I recommend visiting the Vision Forum and Books on the Path websites for other great learning resources, and suggest every woman make articles on Jennie Chancey’s “LadiesAgainstFeminism.org” website a regular part of their reading. On a related note, Josh’s twin brothers Alex and Brett received praise (and pictures) in some recent posts by Doug Phillips in his blog on the VisionForum.com website. Now there are a couple of fine young men! There is a link there to the Harris twins’ blog site, where they have been giving daily commentary regarding the Vision Forum San Antonio Independent Christian Film Festival. They posted some comments by their father too. Events like the Film Festival are a great place to meet the kind of men and women I’ve been talking about, along with their families. I’d also suggest learning more about the “Family Integrated Church” model advocated by Doug Phillips, Greg Harris, and others. I haven’t heard if Josh agrees with his father or not, as the church Josh leads doesn’t appear to be age/family integrated.

Lastly, in my studies on gender roles in the church (motivated in part by my on-line dating experience), the following are my top picks for ladies’ books:

1. “Created to Be His Helpmeet” by Debi Pearl
2. “Raising Maidens of Virtue” by Stacy McDonald
3. “Becoming a Titus 2 Woman” by Martha Peace
4. “The Excellent Wife” by Martha Peace
5. “Be Fruitful and Multiply” by Nancy Campbell

I haven’t read the ones mentioned by Ms. McCulley but they sound good too. I also recommend “The Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Laura Schlessinger. Although it is secular, she does a good job of writing from a Judeo/Christian perspective. You can learn a lot about the concerns of men from the letters she publishes in her book.

Enough for now! Blessings to all and to all a good night!

Scott Jonas
E. Wenatchee, WA

Philippa

As a British Christian woman who has a fulfilling ministry in her church, and who has worked in both secular and Christian employment over the last 20 years, I strenuously oppose the viewpoints espoused on the Ladies Against Feminism and Vision Forum websites. There is an intelligent debate to be had on the impact of feminism, and the meaning of biblical headship and submission, but all these organisations want to do is turn the clock backwards. This is far from an adequate response, to put it mildly, to the immense challenges facing Christians in our post-modern, increasingly secularised culture. I would be very wary of such movements coming to British shores, but I doubt they would make much headway – thank goodness.

The ‘let’s blame society’s current ills entirely on women’ mentality is deeply depressing to behold, no less depressing than the ‘all men are oppressors’ mentality espoused by militant feminists.

To make it clear: I’m not a radical feminist, nor have I ever been. The man who marries me (assuming I get married, in God’s providence) will find a supportive, respectful and loving wife. But denying women the vote? Saying that women should stay at home under their father’s authority until they get married? Regarding artificial birth control as a sin? What century are these people living in??? And what, pray, separates their views from those of fundamentalist Muslims, who also oppose women’s rights? There is a happier biblical balance to be found between narrow fundamentalism and aggressive feminism.

It also doesn’t surprise me in the least, given their view of women’s roles, that LAF and Vision Forum have faulty theologies of singleness. According to these folk, unless a Christian woman is married and has children, she is not fulfilling her God-given dominion. But this is an inadequate reading of Scripture. St. Paul celebrates singleness as a positive thing. The evangelical church desperately needs a rich theology of celibate sexuality, because the most compelling model for singleness is Jesus Himself. As Lauren Winner says in her excellent book Real Sex – the Naked Truth about Chastity (Brazo Press), singleness can be an authentic theological witness of God’s love for us … just as marriage is an exalted witness to the mystical marriage between Christ and His church.

It is ironic that the LAF website features pictures of elegantly gowned ladies of leisure sitting around reading, as if to transport us back to some Jane Austen never-never land in which all was light and joy simply because women were at home. Jane Austen herself was wiser: she was no feminist, but she wrote with piercing clarity about the interior world of women and how restrictive it was – and the evils of women’s total financial dependence on men. All her novels are based on this theme. She was also a believer: it’s hard to miss the strong Christian morality in Pride and Prejudice.

The viewpoint espoused by Sovereign Grace Church, by way of contrast, comes across to me as the acceptable and gracious face of Reformed Evangelicalism. I’m not Reformed myself – more of a charismatic Anglican – but I greatly enjoy Carolyn’s blog and found her book ‘Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?’ extremely helpful and winsome, and thoroughly biblical and Christ-centred. I recommend it to my other single female friends without hesitation.

It is clear, Mr Jonas, that you don’t care for feisty Christian women, which personally I find a shame, as I believe that God is rather fond of His feistier saints, but I do wish you well in your search for a soulmate.

Cordially,

Philippa

Susan

Carolyn, once again your godly perspective illuminates what for me has been a somewhat murky mystery--how to urge my single friends to be wary about online dating without sounding like a spoil-sport. Your advice will remain in the back of my mind and (hopefully) will be at the ready when I need it next time.

I am 54, single, and tried E-Harmony for three months. After one promising gentleman whom I had corresponded with for two months accidentally sent me a romantic email intended for another of his online women, I grew skeptical. Two days later I was "matched" with a man I knew from a local church. I had known him several years, had spent time with him at various functions and trust me, we would NOT be compatible. So much for the value of the personality profile! Needless to say, I quit and do not intend to go this route ever again.

I attend a family-integrated church in my area even though I am single, so I know what you are talking about, Scott Jonas. I enjoyed reading your post!

Carmen

Mmm hmm....That's what I'm talkin' about! Although I have pondered from many angles, you've provided new ones. Excellent!! Thanks.

Isabelle

Carolyn, could you post your source for #2? I'm interested in reading that article.

Single Proposition

Thanks for this great advice. I've been doing my own research...maybe my experience will help some of you out there as well.

S.P.

fumania

Wow! This website seems like a great place to post difficult questions. I love reading the articles and enjoy the intelligent exchanges...

O.k.. I have a question to ponder and have been heavily weighing this question for some time now..

Should people only date those within their income brackett? All view points appreciated.

I am a 33 year old woman and have been dating some really professionally financially well-off men for some time now.. And it is wonderful to be treated to so many things I cannot afford on my own.. trips, gifts, elaborate dinners..

However, what is the expense of this, if I cannot return the dinners, elaborate gifts and trips..

I am a teacher and work very hard at my job.. however, no matter how many hours of work I put in, I will never be able to afford to give as the prior boyfriends/dates have.

And at some point, I begin to feel the power shift in the relationship, and I begin to feel "owned". At which point, I initiate a break-up.

How am I to have a relationship of equality, if I date those that are millionaires???

Is my thinking off here?..

I know i will likely get a roasting as I am sure I have offended a few readers, never the less, I appreciate your responses.

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