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August 24, 2009

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Sue

Carolyn,

This reminds me of when you cited the policy of World Vision, with reference to women, that they must have equal participation in decision-making. There is no other answer. I pray that Christian women can become part of the solution and not perpetuate the problem of lesser authority for females around the world.

The authority and submission paradigm for marriage taught by so many evangelicals is incredibly damaging to many women and will cost them their life, for some only their sanity.

Lifting up women to equality with men is not at the expense of men, but is better for everyone.

Kristine McGuire

Thank you for sharing the article (I'm going next to Amazon to pre-order the book!) but also for pointing out the need for biblical understanding and true equality in marriage. It is through Christ that men and women find true unity, and the rights of all people are championed.

Carolyn McCulley

As a point of clarification, it's true that women are equal to men in terms of their status as creatures made in the image of God. And as sinners in need of a Savior! Equality is declared on the first page of the Bible and modeled for us throughout Scripture. That said, so are roles and the recognition of authority. Our modern culture equates worth and roles as the same, but Scripture does not. That's why I believe Christians can both uphold the dignity of women around the world, reach out with the gospel to all involved, and still uphold the teaching about roles found in the Bible. When we do so without recognizing our mutual equality as sinners redeemed by the blood of Christ, then we flaunt whatever authority we are given by our Savior. That's why Jesus said do not marvel over the limited authority you are given, but marvel that your names are in the book of Life.

Terry

This was excellent! I linked to it on my blog tonight.

Jessalyn Hutto

Dear Carolyn,

I want to thank you for bringing this book up within the Christian community. The subject matter is so heart breaking, but it is vital that we know the terrible evil that is pervading our world and try to find ways to be the hands and feet of our Savior until his return. It also reminds me of how desperately I desire to see Christ return and judge the evil that has ravaged our world since the fall. Knowing that each of these sinful deeds will be punnished gives me peace and hope for the future.

In responce to Sue's statement, "The authority and submission paradigm for marriage taught by so many evangelicals is incredibly damaging to many women and will cost them their life, for some only their sanity," I must disagree. True life and true sanity are found only in Christ. He has taught us how to live to the fullest through his Word and it is there we find true freedom. Loving, sacrificial authority and respectful, honoring, submission are the only prescription to a happy, healthy, and fulfilling marriage.

Sue

Jessalyn,

Organizations with experience in Africa support the policy that women need equal participation in leadership and decision-making. This book supports that view.

If you want to contradict the view of those organizations and people who have been involved in helping women improve their living conditions, you could mention examples of how increased submission has improved the lives of real women in Africa.

Perhaps Carolyn could provide some examples of this. I think we need to support those things which are going to help women out of violence. Typically submission to abuse increases the abuse. I have not heard of any counter examples.

Jessalyn

Dear Sue,

I am not in any way encouraging the idea that abuse should be tolerated or encouraged. I agree with you that we should do everything in our power to help these women and teach their husbands how to be loving and respectful partners with their wives.

The problem is that, and correct me if I am wrong, we are going to be coming to this issue from different perspectives. I believe that the only way to "liberate" these women is with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through belief in the gospel (that Jesus Christ is God, that he gave his life on the cross so that we as sinners could be forgiven, that because of his sacrifice our relationship with God is restored and we will spend eternity with him in heaven) the men of these cultures would come to the understanding that we are all made in God's image and therefore deserve to be respected. Also, a knowledge Christ's condescension and service to sinful humanity would create a desire to serve others (including their wives). I am by no means endorsing the sinful dictatorship of a husband over his "wifely property" described in this book, but a loving and respectful relationship that is dictated by God's plan for marriage.

I would never contradict the fact that equal participation in leadership and decision-making and even other forms of gender equality have in the past and will in the future decrease the physical/emotional abuse of the female gender. However, I don't think that this is the best answer to the problems facing cultures around the world. Yes, gender "equality" has brought respect to women within the civilized world, but this "solution" has brought its own problems such as increased divorce rates, the devaluation of the role of dedicated motherhood within a society, increased promiscuity among young women, and increased abortion rates. In solving one problem we unwittingly create others. I am not saying that there are not benefits incurred, but simply that with those benefits come other unwanted side effects. This is because the effort is made without acknowledging the spiritual aspects of the problem. I am very much in favor of "liberating" these women. My favored approach, however, is to get to the heart of the problem by truly liberating both men and women from the sin that holds them in bondage. Only by liberating them from their sin will they be free to treat each other with love and respect in obedience to the Lord. This is what missionaries around the globe are seeking to do. As Carolyn said, "As Christians, we have an opportunity here to help families around the world by both standing against incredible injustice against women and by preaching the gospel of reconciliation. Let's not lose any ground to lesser solutions."

I really appreciate your passion and desire to improve these women's lives; we simply differ on the means. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Sue

Jessalyn,

Thank you for responding. I have a somewhat different viewpoint.

As I see it, one cannot forcibly convert husbands. Another sad statistic is that domestic violence is not lower in church attending families than non-church attending families in North America. I think it is evident that women are not sheltered from violence by the church.

You may say that they would be sheltered by the husband living out the gospel. But in the meantime what? In fact, among abused wives I know are a very good number of minister's and missionary wives. Many Christian husbands in our churches here do not live out the gospel. Can we guarantee that they will in Africa?

In view of the fact that the gospel cannot guarantee a reduction of violence, there should be some way to enable women to have freedom from violence and to feed their children in the meantime.

If the authority and submission gospel is preached in Africa, then women will not be able to get loans, or employment since their money would be under their husbands control. This is enough of a difficulty here in NA for a woman who lives in submission. How does she save money, plan a pension, further her education, if her husband sees her as uniquely occupied within the house and under his "final say"?

I cannot agree with your recounting of the side effects either. Oddly, in industrialized societies, in western Europe, the birth rate is higher in countries with less rigid gender roles. Italy, for example, has by far the lowest birth rate but reinforces gender roles.

It is important also to realize that abortion rates in the US are several times higher than anywhere in Europe, where abortion is more available. Statistics on abortion are not availble pre-women's lib, as far as I know, but abortion was a major issue in patriarchal Greece, where men wanted to limit family size.

I cannot agree that the higher incidence of divorce is necessarily a negative, since in the 19th century, there was an enormous nunmber of families living without enough food, children in orphanages, street children dying in all the major cities of North America. In some countries without easy access to divorce, many couples simply live with new partners outside of marriage and families are not cemented by marriage at all.

I believe that women being able to work, and being able to divorce, although not ideal, has made a huge improvement in the living conditions of children.

The statistics of street children and orphans in North America is often forgotten and we pretend that the masses lived in a middle class family environment. This is not the case. Many dies in extreme poverty.

Women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton fought hard to enable women to have rights in order to feed their children. They were not anti marriage, but promoted the interests of women who needed to escape from physically violent situations, also lacking in basic needs for the children.

If the women of North America do not support equal participation in decision-making for women worldwide, then a very basic means of survival is being withheld, (one which we benefit from in civil law, even if it is muted by the church.) I do not think that authority and submission in marriage can be presented to the women of Africa as the "Gospel."

Surely our love of children should make us want to help women to participate fully in decision-making.

a.b.e.

have to help men change, too, by preaching the gospel and teaching them to truly apply the Ephesians 5 mandate to love their wives as Christ loved the church -- without concern for cultural practices or restrictions.

Do you know how many Christian men (including leaders and pastors) use porn, commit adultery and otherwise abuse their wives? They know about the mandate to love their wives as Christ loved the church. But they don't practice it. How do you expect to get men in the third world to do this when men in the first world don't do it?

a.b.e.

My favored approach, however, is to get to the heart of the problem by truly liberating both men and women from the sin that holds them in bondage. Only by liberating them from their sin will they be free to treat each other with love and respect in obedience to the Lord.

I hate to be the negative one again, but having seen the personal lives of many Christians I don't think many of them have allowed themselves to be fully liberated from sin. I can't tell you how many Christians I looked up to only to find they were sinning in their personal lives. This has happened time and again regardless of gender, race, or socio-economic status. There appears to be so few Christians truly living out the liberation from sin that it is hard for non-believers to believe there really is liberation.

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